Monday, May 12, 2014

Chet Uber And Tom Ryan Phonecall Transcript; Jan 29th, 2013

Posted By: ZiLe Ohai - 2:11 PM

This gets pretty interesting towards the end. I accused Chet Uber of helping to create Neal.

copied from pastebin

Chet Uber/Tom Ryan phonecall pt 2 full transcript

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Uber: Those are the kind of people that I work with, okay?

Ryan : Mmmhmmm.

Uber: And I'm not a name-dropper, but if I started telling you the kind of people that our in our program , it'd go like...Fuck, if we were playing “Fantasy Security”, you'd go “holy fucking shit”.

When I called you, the reason I called you, well, there's a couple of reasons, but when I, we don't recruit, per se. When we run into a problem, I had a problem with Imap(?) ,(unintelligible) I know who does Imap, can't really remember who wrote it.

He lives on an island, right off so and so , and his name is escaping me, and I get an email message that his name...and I call him up and I said, told him who I was, said I heard you exempted Imap, and. Yeah, could you help us as a subject matter expert in Imap, and he said “how much time”, and I said it could be an hour or two a year.  Might be an hour or two a month, but nothing more than that.

We don't go to people who work on Imap servers daily. We go to the people who invented the thing.

So, we have a lot of people who really, really really understand the technologies.

So with all that given, giving you kind of an idea who we are, Neal, in about 2009, during my second year as the director, for some bizarre reason unknown to me at this time, that I'm attributing to the fact, that he really does have Lymes disease, and I have known Neal since 1997.

Omaha Nebraska, at that time only had 480,000 people in it, if you took the metro, we only had 550,000. Now, we have about, almost a million people in the metro, you know if you take in every city around us. And the city itself,  about 600k-750,000 range. But when you have 420,000 people in a city that's only 80 blocks by 100 blocks long, and downtown is only 20 blocks by 20 blocks, Neal's office ends up being three blocks down from an office building that I owned three floors of.

And every day at lunch, Neal would pass me on the sidewalk. So of course I know who he is.

Ryan: mmhm.

Uber: Okay? And, at that time, my handle was idettic (?) and I had pals at (lists groups/IRC channels, including Efnet and 2600)... I was a hacker. I was a hacker, I always will be a hacker. I've never been a blackhat  hacker. I've never broken into a system that didn't belong to me in my life.

So it's very lucky that I grew up in the military and was always at the community that the military had donated their  equipment to the schools. And so I was, i've been (using?) the highest-end computers since I was seven or eight years old.

I didn't need  to break into anything. I had access.

But, I'm a hacker, cause to me, a hacker is simply a person with a high interest in figuring out how something works, and will not quit until he understands how it works. That's what a hacker is. A hacker is all about intellectual pursuits with means  conventional and unconventional to solve a problem. It's not limited to computers. It's become limited to computers, but I hold to the MIT Railroad club hacker definition of the word hacker.

And, you know, adversary characterization, we have 47 kinds of major attackers and hacker is one group. So is hackers for hire, so are crackers, so are insiders, so are deranged people, so are consultants, so are vendors, so are nation states, so are terrorists, so are hate groups and so and so.

And that tree comes down to 6,000 subtypes, and those subtypes are cross matched with things like the FBI Watchlist and the UK Watchlist and the Australian Watchlist and every ally of the United States' watchlist.

And so for each kind of hacker, we can tell you, through studying _____ risk database, we know every time there's a computer attack that has ever happened in the world. And, we have access to the details of it. We can tell, for example, that hackers, or lets say organized crime, by these distinct motivations.

Their motivation is money. Time is unlimited. Their toolset is ___? Their quality of their toolset is high. We have 8 parameters. And for each of those things I told you about, there's a different value parameter. Not every... Deranged people don't have the same amount of money, time, toolset same skill set, as a nation state.

And so, adversary characterization's job is to figure out, out of threat assessment, which likely adversary it would be, and that's set up to what were seeing with Blanc (?) and other things, we can narrow it down to … (?)


Sounds like a lot of work.


It's a ton of work. And it's been 15 years, and it will be another 15 years, Tom.  But I'm trying to give you an idea of who we really are, because I'm sure you think I'm what you read when you google my name. And I'm just not. Okay?

Defcon or something that happened, and we had a prepared speech, and you happened to be there and went to Blackhat, and I talked to PDS (?), it was a very professional exact-on kind of information on what we do. Same with the Washington Post event..  Blackhat, was actually a national security event that happened where one of the presenters got them to disclose something that would have been a threat to national security.

And so all my friends with the government, and their title of MIL, or with MIL in their title, um, had to rush off, and we're helping me... we were going public, because we were  trying to go to recruit at Blackhat, not at Defcon.


No, I know.


And so,.... uh, when I got to Defcon, my people, you have to understand that my relationship to the government is completely unofficial. You know, it's official in the sense, that Neal Rauhauser has sent me, goes from me to somebody in military. Department of Defense, something called the NCIJTFAG National Cybercrime Intelligence Joint Task Force  and their analytical group. Which had a desk, and it's sponsored by the FBI, because, now I'm going to start filling you in about Neal, now that you understand kind of about the bigger picture.

What had happened was that, they were scared if I had talked about what I was going to talk about, which was work we had  done in Iran in 2009, where we had literally infiltrated the entire operating system of the infrastructure of Iran. And thousands of pieces of information through the green movement, but we didn't do anything, there was no (haze back?) ever. You know. (Austin Pete?) is a big bad figment of a lot of people's information.

I don't know if you know Austin or not, but what Austin would  he had one hack. And he would go to a hacking group and say 'Look I'm powerful, I have this one hack', and people would say, 'Oh you are a powerful hacker. Here, let us show you a few more hacks.” And then he'd go to the next hacking group, and show them something they didn't know, and they'd give him two more hacks. And he infiltrated the entire underground hacking network, with everybody thinking he's this highly technically proficient thing, and he's not.

He's a social engineer, with a moderate programming background.

He happened to be one of our sources, in all of that. So, we were going to talk about that whole thing, and we we're going to talk about the fact we had no role in the Bradley Manning affair. Which is the honest to gods truth.

Ryan : mmmhmm

Uber: Even though Adrian Lamo, who I think I can help you a little bit, Adrian should have been, over the last three to seven days, talking to you. Through backchannels.  Trying to feel you out.

Ryan: mmhmm


Are you aware of this?

Ryan: Well I've kind of known who Adrian is through the backchannels because I used to hang out with the NY 2600 crew for awhile, so yeah.


And I know thats your stomping ground. And I know very well who you are. Alright. I've never taken the time , because I would need your written permission to run a background check on you, but I know who you are.

I have you placed in the whitehat sub. But Adrian should have, you should have been getting contacted by someone who claimed to be Adrian, or may not have said he was Adrian, depends on what kind of mood Adrian is in that day. Asking about Neal.

(phone alert sound on recording)

Ryan: Yep, I did.

Uber: Did that happen?

Ryan: Yep.

Uber: That was Adrian Lamo. And the reason is, we're preparing, for the Bureau, an adversary characterization profile, which is why I took the time to explain that to you, on Neal. Because Neal is a hybrid, he's a hacker, who is deranged, who is an insider. And he probably fits in three other categories. I mean, he's a complex guy.

Please understand, I was there when Neal's kids were born. I know when they were going to their bris. I know how the split up with his wife actually really happened. I do know that he never paid his child support.

But there were times in his life when Neal did some very good things. Neal, for awhile, became Jewish. There was a couple of time where I actually sub-contracted work to him because he went behind my back and tried to steal the contract, I quit hiring him.

But Neal, actually,  is one of the foremost experts on PGP4 and Cisco, that there is in the midwest. And he's had numerous positions with rural ISPs with wireless triple play. You know what I mean when I say triple play?

Telephone, internet, TV...

I know his whole career backwards and forwards. I can tell you what he looks like, not without his underwear, but I can tell you everything about him down to his skivvies. Because I even stayed in his house for a few months in my lifetime, in the 20 years I've known him.

But, in 2009, Neal all of a sudden started posting stuff, up on the Internet, about Project Vigilant. And he opened a Twitter account, and started posting stuff about Project Vigilant. Neal had a NDA (non-disclosure agreement) so ironclad that it wasn't even funny.

And I'm like, “What're you doing?”

And he says, “Well, you guys weren't doing anything and so I thought I'd help you with the public image”.

And I go, “Neal, we don't even want people to know we exist!”

 Our targets are the biggest criminals in the world. I mean, (when the system is done?) our intention is to sell it all  to the United States government. We're not going to operate it, the only operational things we do are to test it.

We take open source intelligence and human intelligence, and run it through a system and match it to what we think the intelligence community uses, because some of our members wrote things like the United States Secret Service _threat__ tracking system, and retained all of the IP records (?) so our interface matches, probably the interface from 1999 or something.

You know, we wanted to make sure that when we transferred this, it wasn't going to be a stove pipe. So they could integrate this into the government and use it. And so, there was no intention to ever sell it to anybody else, and we did at one point, have negotiations with Raytheon and Mark ___, and to offer this as a software, with a backchannel to the Senate Oversight Intelligence Committee, so if used,  it could be shut down if any of the TLA went and used it against American citizens.

We were building extremely powerful, nasty, shit. And we still do.

Some of it's purely theoretical, some of its applied science, some of it is built and is running, and some of it is active and ready to sell. That's why we're not a not-for-profit, we're a for-profit company.

We are funded, so that you know, by donations from our members. We're self-funded, and I'll tell you this, the contract we have is with the State Department to provide a way for Iranian people to get past the censorship, because my friend, Tor doesn't cut it.

Tor just shows the … IRC ___ files, with more intelligence on anybody who uses Tor. We know exactly how the Iranian network works and we know everything about the Iranian cyber army. That's why we were hired for the project as a sub contractor.

So anyway, I say, Neal, take this down.

But the damage was already kind of starting to be done.

And that's why Defcon 2010 was scheduled. Because Neal had done this damage already, and I had to do damage control.

Now, remember, some of the science of this (or I'm a scientist?)... okay, I was in the Army National Guard and formally trained, I'm an information operation specialist. I know computer network attacks, computer network defense, computer network operations, psyops, deception, electromagnetic warfare, information inference and information warfare. I am sub listed (?) as information operations.

I'm a scientist.  A mathematician.

So then, Neal writes a post about...revealing extreme details on Daily Kos. And, I flipped out. And he pulled it.

At that point, is when I traveled to Champaign-Urbana. I had been, so that you know, in 2006/5, at the very end of the year, I had two massive coronaries and I almost died. I was at Naval Course (?) graduate school and at the high tech investigators association giving a talk. I didn't know I had the first heart attack, but the second was so bad I drove my car into a Home Depot.

And, they had to do a quick multiple bypass on me without any records on me, and it didn't go very well. In 2006, two of the four graphs collapsed, and I ended up having to shut down a computer company. Some of the partners were like Dr Fred Cohen, the father of the computer virus. And, I lost everything I owned. I lost my house. I lost my lover. I lost my cats. My cars, I lost my (job?).

I had personal guarantees, I had just signed a new five year lease on equipment and on a building, and I got judgments against me. In 2007 I was told I was going to die... my heart had this thing called your injection fraction (?) normal people are about 75, my injection fraction was 23.

I went to Florida and put in a pacemaker in 2008, right when I was becoming the director, and they did some experimental heart surgery, and my injection fraction is now 40. So... just to let you know, when you hear about Director Uber, in the back of my bed, there's a large wallpaper that looks like an office. I do everything I do from my bed, or I have another desk in another room with a couple of computers running Dmware.

On a good day, I can walk a kilometer. I can't lift anything over 30 or 40 pounds.

So the ultra powerful , ultra criminal super secret agency front guy, me, is on social security administration disability, with a bad heart. I probably won't live more than 5 or 10 years.

Okay? I don't tell a lot of people this, but my friends all know this.

So when I went to see Neal, I was at the point where I just recovered from both experimental heart surgeries, and at the point where I was just then able to get out and move around again. And when I got there, Neal had nothing for me.

The whole “trigger?” project that was specified was on a drive that supposedly  crashed. And, one of my areas of expertise, and I'm a court-certified digital evidence uh uh …(unintelligble) i've never lost a case, and i've been involved in probably 50 cases, criminal and civil court cases.

He didn't even save the drive for me to do the forensics on, because he knew I would recover all the data. He put brand new drives in, reformatted them, put them back in and got it all back up and running again, and... he says, he smashed all the drives and threw them away.  We don't know that for a fact.

Well, on those drives, were things that were encrypted with AES level encryption, so i'm not worried if they get in the hands of bad people, unless its China, essentially. Um, but, what Neal had done when I walked in the room was... He was running a company called PST.

And I was listening to him on the phone, pretend to be Sarah Palin, pretend to be all these right-wing people, and he had all these aliases, and he was pretending he was in Anonymous. It took me have to understand, I'm fairly heavily medicated, not anything like like psych meds, but every heart med I have says “do not operate machinery” etc...

And so, I have to sit down in a chair , and it might take me a few minutes to right myself and then start to listen to what was going on.  Meaning I don't have any problem but... I guess what I'm saying is, my cognition is fine, my memory is fine, but due to the medication i'm on, if I  move around, it takes me a little while to get adjusted and figure out what's going on.

So if I'm walking into a room, it's sometimes hard for me to understand what's going on in a room, because I have to sometimes concentrate on walking straight. So, I sat in the living room for about five months. And I heard everything that man did.

And he was with someone named Beth Becker. She was living there. And he had, prior to that, been having sex with Beth.

But while I was there, he kept taking trips to see a lawyer in the far left wing political scene. And it was a woman, and he was cheating on Beth, and I had to listen to Beth cry for months on end. And, you know, kind of starting to get the story?

Ryan: Yeah.

Uber: So I don't have a lot of proof, but I can testify to what I heard, to what I saw. He had the twitter warfare engine I asked him to build. But he didn't have anything for me, for Project Vigilant. So essentially what he did, what we went to the bureau and reported was... We had a government only technology product that was stolen from us, given, sold and offered to non-governmental organizations and non-profits, to be used in the political process.

And thirdly, that um, we thought there was a conspiracy going on to affect the American political system, and other things.

So now I'm going to start turning to things, of why I'm calling....

Neal and I got into a huge fight during this period of time, before I had driven out there, he had never told me the drive had crashed. He had told me he had great success and he was done. And the other people were done with their parts or getting close. I happened to be writing one of those parts.

And he says, Chet, I've got customers.

And I go, what do you mean you've got customers? You weren't asked to market this and you know this is a (dot) specified project. That means you can't sell to somebody that doesn't have .gov or .mil in their organizational title, so, something that isn't a government agency.

And he says, well I've decided this should be put into the hands of people who want to make changes in the world.

I said, you don't have the right to make that decision.

And he says, well, while I was working for you, I started working on the side again.

I say, you can't do that. I mean, you can, I can't stop you, but intellectual property is covered under the NDA and it doesn't belong to you anymore. You own a percentage of it, as per your contract, but that's it! You don't have control over it, but what you have is a right for life to maintain the product you delivered to us, but you can never resell it, you cannot integrate it in any future product, and you can never release it to the public.

And then he says, well one of the customers is the AFL-CIO.

And I said, Neal, do you understand what would happen if the AFL-CIO got a hold of this?

He says, No Chet, tell me what would happen?

I said, well you can't affect presidential elections because of the electoral college process. But you could tamper with any  union elections, any, state / local elections, any senatorial elections, in the United States.

The reason that we created this project, so you know, is we were studying white supremacy groups as one of our things, specifically the christian identity movement, because they had just gotten a way out of a hate speech thing by becoming a religion.

So now they were claiming their hate speech which was being banned, was not just protected by freedom of speech, but by freedom of religion.

So what we would do, we had created, using DSD (?) websites, and we would go out to christian identity movement, several sites, and we would ...are you familiar with HT Track, that hides the sources even better.

Anyway, we would pull down the entire site, including the back end, and then the information and core support parse out the graphics and text, according to what the intelligence people wanted, and then they would go over the site, give it a different name, that looked like a typical, Aryan site.

But we had it sitting on a root-kitted box inside a network, sensors from ___ company and Cisco running, you know, Cisco's intrusion detection stuff, and our own stuff, so that anybody that got on that box ...(unintelligible) anything you would do on that box we could monitored.

And, if you tried to rootkit the box, you'd run into our root sys,  that would tell you were trying to root kit the box, and it would let you root kit the box. But you wouldn't really root kit the box.

And the idea was that, we would go in to the Twitter places, where these groups were recruiting perfectly fine 13-16 year old male (minds?) and on a website, and we would use this tool, to say, where can I go to get a website?. They would send us to the regular website. When we were in the regular website, after our people were undercover for awhile, they would say, you know, we've heard of this other website, does this belong to you?

They'd say no, but what is it? And then they'd start going to our website.

So if our whole use, and again, we only operated for a very short period of time, just to make sure it worked. We weren't running an investigation, or any other data that got turned over to the government. We were just running it to see if it worked...

So the idea, if you're following me, is we were using a information Twitter tool to manipulate people to think that not one person, but a whole group of people with the same ideology, knew about a new website aligned with their ideology and would go to it. And things like that. Following me?



Uber: Okay. So what between then and now (?)

Ryan: Neal and his sockpuppet accounts use something called Lulztweeter 9000.

Uber: (chuckles) So my … I messed up, telling you about things cause, normally... (unintelligible) to tell you what I just told you. But because you're in Infragard, … I can't remember what page in that long contract we both signed was, but there's a thing if I say you're in Infragard, and you say i'm in Infragard, and we say were sharing data, we're both bound by the FBI's contract to not tell anybody what we just talked about.

So, because we really feel Neal stole our work, and Neal was intentionally going to corrupt the political system in the United States, and we never really had proof that he had destroyed all the rest of the stuff,which included his twitter tool, would have made it so it was  undetectable by NSA or anybody.

You would have taken years to prove that someone did it, because, of the... his tool doesn't have that yet, it doesn't auto generate personas with backstops, it generates personas, it manages personas, but  (it's)  the front end.

Ours, one part of our program was, I want 100 people that  are white, anglo-saxon protestants living in these geographic areas, and fill out a bunch of information, and (unintelligible)

He never got that stuff. And he was never allowed to look at it. He just knew that we were working on it.

I've seen some posts you made that indicate you don't like Neal.

Ryan: I hate him.

Uber: Okay. I am telling you, that, the FBI has an investigation,  an unscheduled teleconference from the Omaha filed office to the FBI, in a continuing series of depositions that I'm giving, and I'm looking for any … what I would like from you, and you can take your name off it if you want, I'm looking for you to write out a deposition of what you know.

SO that I can present, in with everything else, and you're not the only person we're doing this to, Tom. Every person we know that Neal has contact with, we're doing this to. I'm not targeting you, I'm not trying to entrap you, I'm not going to make you a target of this investigation, I don't think you're involved in any way. I just want you to know that, …and write for me if you would,  we need as much detail as we can,is going to go.

Now … actually having hard proof. Did you get any logs? Do you have any times of when you talked that could go back against phone company records?

Ryan: I never talked with him (cross chatter) Neal's biggest problem with me, is when I dumped all the Occupy records, emails. And thats when him and his little group, his cronies like Applebaum, Alexa O'Brien (sp?) , that's when they started coming after me.

Uber: I'm going to up the game a little bit and let you into another section of this....I don't know how closely are you following the Manning trial?

If you read the records, I'd be glad to email you this, they're lying in the article... on March 25, I received a letter from civilian Chet Uber stating that he knew a person who had evidence of an intelligence analysts at Forward Base Hammar was delivering bulk classified documents to an Australian national at WikiLeaks.

And then they ask, did you talk to Uber again?

(Continues reading article excerpt)

So here's what really happened, Tom. Do you like Tom or Thomas?


Doesn't matter.


Well if it does matter tell me... What happened was, Adrian called me in the middle of the night... Adrian might know a few FBI agents from when they arrested him in 2003. They... he doesn't have any government contacts. You know... I do. Lots of them. So.

He called me up, and he says, “Chet”, and I said, you didn't call me Director Uber, so this is personal?

And he says yeah, this is me to you.

And I said, whats up Adrian, its late, its really late, what's going on?

And he says, I'm scared.

Why?  What are you scared of?

He says, he starts telling me a story... and I let him finish the story.. And actually the way he told it, because he was panicking, Adrian.. If you know him, Adrian doesn't panic. He is an extremely guarded person, and the words that come out of his mouth on the telephone... are extremely guarded and he chooses his words with extreme precision.

Adrian was at the point of babbling... I've known the kid since he was in diapers. My relationship to his family is I know his father Mario, and he used to work for the United States Government  as a translator in the foreign services...

and I met Adrian., knew of Adrian, and the reason I associated with Adrian when he was arrested, and they were perp walking him, they stuck a bunch of mikes in his face, and I happened to be watching this live.

And they asked him, they said, are you going to try to get out of this?

And Adrian looks right into the camera and says, I am responsible for every single thing that I did. I did it to show the people they had flaws, and I told them about them. And if there are consequences for what I did, I will deal with those consequences.

Okay? To me, that's the sign of... a good man. That's an honest guy. That's not somebody who's trying to get away with what he did.

Because of that 45 seconds of stuff, I reached out to Adrian while that was going on , while he was on house arrest, and we started to become friends.

And, I've actually hired Adrian, i've given him money, loaned him money, to help him get through his life. He does actually work for us, he was an assistant director in adversary characterization.

But, he never, Project Vigilant, never entrapped Bradley Manning. And the involvement at the time was purely this personal conversation.

So what I told him was, because he was babbling, I thought he actually had the documents in his possession. And I said, Adrian, step back from your computer, take a deep breath, copy it all to CD-ROM, and then wipe your drive...

and he said, why?

And I said, you're holding contraband. There's only two affirmative defenses, one is to immediately notify the authorities, the other is to destroy it.

I want you to do both.

If you don't report it and just destroy it, and say you get arrested, and they find a record, you could get accused of having stolen it, because you never reported it.

So, he said, let me talk to my dad and one other guy, and I'm scared of turning this in. People will want to kill me. And I don't even know who to talk to.

So he hangs the phone up. And, about an hour later, I decided not to go back to bed. Adrian called me back up, he said, at that point he clarified it for me and said I don't have anything but the logs of my conversations.

And I said, well, because he's in the army, it's on the army... my Army CID officer retired, so it's going to take me about ten minutes instead of five minutes. Go make yourself some tea that you like and wait by the phone.

So I woke up the officer of the day at ___ AFB. And said get me the OSFI officer of the day. He gets on the phone, I explain myself. That there's been a security breach and I need to speak to an army CID officer. I said call EC-3 James Christy, here's his phone number here's his ___ number.

Call the NSA and speak to, and i'm sorry, I can't tell you his name, here's his home phone number. Call the Dept of Homeland Security, here's this guys home and cell number. They'll tell you who I am.

He said... um, okay, are you going to be at this phone number? And I said yes.

And within about three minutes...he calls me back and starts calling me Mr Uber, and again showing me all this respect... I was Army National Guard, an enlisted guy who put out forest fires and was never  in a war. And I didn't serve very long.

And so he said, what do you need? I said I need an Army CID officer please immediately please. And he says, I understand, would you please stay on the phone... and it's click click click until Antonio gets on the phone. Hi, my name is Antonio so and so...

Antonio, what's your email address?

He said, what's it about... I explained it to him... and he goes, holy shit are you serious?

And I said, yeah, I think you should go and detain this guy under whatever thing you can. This is an active thing, he's still stealing data right now, I know you can't accuse him, because you haven't seen shit. But I'd at least like you to tell the guy to go take a three day leave. And bar him from access.

So I sent that email, and that email is in the records.

Well when Defcon came around, I wasn't planning on talking about that, but there were people in the back of the room wearing these “Adrian Lamo Should Die” t-shirts. And I finally slammed my hand down on the table, I had given a 1:45 minute press conference that was supposed to be  15 minutes long. I'm tired, I'm sick. At that point, I was having a hard time walking around, thinking straight. I hadn't taken my medication, hadn't eaten.

And  I said, this is what happened, and I kind of blurted out what I reported to the press. I didn't mean to do it...and I got to the airport 48 minutes later, and my phone rings and its Adrian.

Adrian says, dude have you seen the news yet? And I said no, and he said, well you better look at Forbes (best guess at this bit of the conversation)

And I went oh fucking... Adrian I'm so sorry. I did not mean to do that.

He goes Chet, I'm not mad, shit happens, people make mistakes. And I explained to him how it happened,how I had leaked it out, it was never supposed to come out that way.

I was going to carefully recall the phone call to explain that how Project Vigilant had nothing to do with it, but because of how it came out, it ended up being Project Vigilant was actually involved with the Bradley Manning affair.

So, as you can imagine, and I'm the reason I tell you everything I'm telling you these these are all pieces of a puzzle i'm thinking you're putting together as we talk. The Occupy movement, and the Anonymous movement, and things you may or may not know about  called Operation Japan, Operation India, Operation Malaysia, which involved high level hackers... all are... (unintelligible approx 46 min mark)

One of the things we do operate, is we have people undercover on IRC for ten years as blackhat hackers. And we were in our chats, hearing the name Chet Uber, burn him to the ground, kill him, just like Lamo.

And... this started happening about the time that the article 32 ended and Manning was remanded for court martial and 90 days ago, Neal's name starts popping up in the conversations. And I started getting emails from Neal, asking me questions that were kind of odd.

And then... Neal was calling me, as he was driving, taking a train from NY to DC. And he said, Chet, I'm in big trouble.

And I said, “What'd you do?”

While i'm mad at him for what he did to me, I didn't know he had done anything wrong, I thought he was fucking around with Republicans and stuff. I didn't realize he was conspiring to, or drove the government, which is what I think he's trying to do, I literally think he's trying to tear down the governmental (unintelligible) *48:11

I don't think he's trying to win the election for the Democrats. I don't think that's his end game. I think his end game is far more insidious than that.

So, I know Neal knows people in that office. We have an anonymous task force, We had a LulzSec task force. Every hacking group, remember when I talked about adversary characteristic categories? For every category there is,  we have a task force of volunteers who work on building profiles on those groups.

We don't have people named in those things, we manage  nicks and IP addresses, so that when we hit a match we update our records. And with chats, we record. So we're not breaking any law, we're not doing domestic surveillance.

That would put me in prison, and lots of people in prison, if that's what we were doing.

 Um, but he (Neal)  said... Someone tipped off the Mexicans, and the Mexican cartels think I stole their stuff and they want to kill me. And I have the Michigan Militia after me, and I know the militias really well because of prior service in the military...

And I said, there's three or four in militias in Michigan, Neal, do you remember the exact name of which militia? Was it the Michigan naval militia, michigan militia, or do you know who it was ?

And he said, no, it's just some Michigan Militia guys with guns, and they're out trying to kill me.

And I said, Neal, you need to know what's known in the trade, because Neal has no formal training, I had a formal training...I said, You need to go to ground.

You know what that means?

He goes, No.

(I ask) How much money do you have?

He says I have money.

How much cash do you have, not your credit cards etc...

He said I don't have much.

I said, can you convert, at a single location, all of your money that's in the bank into cash. He said, Yeah. I said do it. By ___ goods, for one month, go find a neighborhood where you can live month to month, that has apartments that are in a low, nasty neighborhood. Go into the room and don't come out for a month. Don't get on the Internet. Don't use your cell phone.

And I said, I'll look into this to see if anybody is really after you?

Because honestly, there's a bit of a paternal thing in me, in that I didn't want to see my friend Neal die.

Okay? Don't get me wrong. I hate Neal more than you could even begin to hate Neal. I don't know if that's true, but, trust me. I have people in my organization that have suggested to me that we simply kidnap and kill him and run him through a woodchipper.

Uh... those were immediately, by me, said, I didn't hear that. I said we're not going to harm him. The problem isn't Neal, the problem is Neal organized all of the Occupy movements in NY and Washington and all across the United States, and I know that, because he told me he did.

And I know that he's been involved in Anonymous. And this was in 2011, 2012. And I said given what he had done to me back in 2009 and 2010, the whole picture, to me, started to become clear and very focused.

Neal had taken what we (stolen?), developed it, created this Twitter thing, and he had been passing it around to his friends, and was acting as the supreme god organizer of it all. I'm going to stop there and...Did any of that fit with what you think is going on ?


It fits. It fits.



Would you be willing to help us, either yourself, or people you know, collect one has to put their name on thing. There's a website called or ….

Ryan: Just send me the links and stuff, and I'll talk to a few people and see what's up.

You there?





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